Hi,
This is posted separately to the thread about the Las Vegas shooting to keep this debate separate to the grief.
I'm British, but have spent some time in the USA, so aware we have totally different gun cultures... not just different laws, but different attitudes about guns.
In the UK gun ownership has been restricted since 1920. This was tightened up after a shooting at a school in Dunblane in 1996, when handguns were made illegal. Some people hold a license that allows them to legally own a shotgun, but definitely no semi-automatic guns, pistols, etc. So gun ownership is very uncommon in the UK - it tends to just be some farmers and a few enthusiasts who use them at rifle ranges. A few criminals have them, but it is pretty rare because the punishment is severe.
Obviously the legal situation in the USA is very different, with the 2nd Amendment specifically defining this as a right:
"A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed." (emphasis added)
The average Brit genuinely does not understand why there are so many guns in the USA, or why the right to have them is so important to some Americans. In the UK most police don't have guns, which has really astonished some of my American friends! I'm really interested in what people think about the issue.
In the 2nd amendment it links the right to keep and bear arms with having a free state. I can sort of see how the free state bit was relevant 200 years ago, but not sure now...?
If you are pro gun control in the USA, is it possible to put the genie back in the bottle now so many guns are out there? Some years ago Australia carried out an enforced "buy back" of guns to destroy a load of them. Would that ever work in the USA?
If you are pro 2nd amendment, what is it about the right to bear arms that matters so much to you? I'm genuinely interested. Is the constitution set in stone forever? I assume the fact it has "amendments" means it is subject to change. Do you regard any level of restriction as reasonable? If you own a gun, what's the main reason? Is it for hunting, self defence or just an object you like?
Let's finish with a shameless name drop... :-) A friend of mine did research for Patricia Cornwell when she was writing her first Jack the Ripper book. She was absolutely shocked to discover my British friend had never held a gun, let alone fired one. She insisted on taking him shooting before they carried on work together. He thought it was quite cool, but mostly because he was hanging out with Patricia Cornwell and she took him out in her helicopter!
Thanks for your thoughts!
barq
It IS just as important today as it was 200 years ago.... If by some wild chance, we were to be attacked from within or without, they do know that not only does our military come well equipped, the average joe on the block as weapons as well...
Like my pop used to say, what keeps that thug from kickin your door down and robbing you in the middle of the night? He is usure if you have a gun or not!
Guns are not only for protection, they are great for hunting and targets....
To take our guns, reminds me of pre WW2 Germany, they sacked up all the guns and were saying how the general public didn't need them as the state would full protect them from all harm, so when Uncle Adolf really got into purifying Germany, absolutely no one could oppose him!!
May have been different if they could have protected their selves a bit better...
Never depend on any government to do all the "protecting" because no one will protect you from them...
Ice
(10-11-2017, 10:48 PM)gemini Wrote: [ -> ]I am a US citizen. My grandfather and father taught me how to care for and shoot firearms when I was growing up. I did the same with my son. It's almost a tradition in our family; learning to protect ourselves, the ones we love, and also understanding why the second amendment is so important. I wish more families in the USA did this. I believe the "gun control" agenda is born out of fear and misunderstanding, not facts. That doesn't mean I don't think it's a good idea to check if someone has been convicted of a serious crime or has a mental issue before purchasing a firearm. You wouldn't allow that person to have a driver's license either. Common sense has a place in everything. But like drug laws, the first gun laws didn’t appear on the books until well over 130 years after our country was founded. Something went terribly wrong. And it wasn’t the drugs or the guns.
The second amendment, and it’s importance to those that risked their lives when they signed our Declaration of Independance, can be summed up by a quote from Thomas Jefferson:
When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny.
I am a US citizen and completely and actively support the 2nd Amendment.
A quote to start
"A free people ought not only to be armed and disciplined but they should have sufficient arms and ammunition to maintain a status of independence from any who might attempt to abuse them, which would include their own government."
George Washington
I was taught by both my father and grandfather at a young age to shoot and to respect ANY type of firearm.
Back in 1941 the emperor of Japan was so confident after their successful attack on Pearl Harbor for his Admirals to plan the invasion of the United States. ALL of the emperor's Admirals and advisors advised him that a land invasion of the United States was impossible because of our 2nd amendment and their would be a gun behind every blade of grass.
That's our 2nd amendment preventing Japan from trying to invade the United States..
It's the people that have changed and parents are not raising their children with any morals or values.
If some radical terrorist or just a lone nut job wants to go kill a bunch of innocent people, they will find another way other than a gun.
I hope and pray I never have to use it but I feel a LOT safer having my carry concealed license.
Also I believe in EXTENSIVE background checks before a person should even be able to purchase a firearm.
Peace All
Fury
Been hunting and shooting since I was a young girl as does my husband, he is the gun [color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.901961)]aficionado and reloader . Both of my children and now my grandchildren have been and are being taught to use guns . We use a multitude of different guns, semi-auto , rifles, shotguns, pistols. I owned a business and would never dream of not carrying protection, we even had a deranged fellow with a gun come into our shop once, I defused the situation and got him out, then reporting him to the police. Funny thing was , it’s was a beauty shop and boutique, I was amazed to find out how many of my clients were armed! Had that man fired a shot he would never had fired another someone would have shot him before the police even got there. [/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.901961)] My gun of choice is a hamerless pistol, that I carry concealed on my body. It has a laser sight. When I go to a movie theater with my grands we sit in the last row and I’m very aware of what is going on around me. We have an alarm system on our house , warning signs up, and 3 dogs in our fenced in yard. But our dogs live in our house. I can assure you that if we ever have a break in it would be the last on the perp would ever make.[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.901961)] As far as the 2nd amendment goes , I am a true believe. No one can protect me better than me. By the time the police would reach me and my family we could be dead. Do I trust the government? Oh hell no! Do I believe in registration of guns? Absolutely. Do I believe in limiting the kind and amt of guns a person can use? No. Do I believe in background checks,?yes. Technology to alter a gun to rapid fire? No , it’s an accessory that had no business being made available. Grips, sights,changing the trigger pressure? sure no problem. Bump stock?hell no [/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.901961)] In the UK their are rumblings of discontent with the gun laws. You , I’m sure are well aware of ALL of the terrorist attacks, stabbing,rapes,acid attacks, and fear that Brexit voted in legally will never be implemented. The citizens have no way to protect themselves against oppressive governments. That was what our founders feared, having come here and fought a revolution against oppression. As the only thing that was available were the arms that they had available,it put them on an almost even keel with their government. The same for the civil war, changing updated technology became available to all. Gun restrictions started when our congress decided they didn’t went citizens to have the arms available to our government, so the 2nd amendment took on government interpretation, and we are being sold a bill of goods by someone’s opinions what we should be ALLOWED. Hence the need of the NRA. And public awareness.[/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.901961)] Sorry for being long winded, but I wanted you to know my background and how I formed my opinion. Which is that, my opinion, take what like from it .[/color]
Hi barq! I appreciate how respectfully you presented the original questions, and how thoughtfully everyone in the forum has answered.
I appear to be in the minority here, but it is my belief that the second amendment is no longer relevant and should be repealed. Our handguns and rifles couldn't possibly defend against an oppressive government with all the technology and weaponry available now. In my opinion, non-violent mass participation in democracy is the most effective weapon in toppling corruption today.
It's definitely a tricky issue with how passionate U.S. gun owners are about their rights and protecting themselves/their families. Studies have shown time and again that more guns equal more gun deaths. I personally do not feel safer seeing all the police officers with automatic guns here in NYC. I do not feel safer knowing my well-meaning neighbor has a concealed weapon. I was admittedly raised by hippies. Peace, love, "imagine" and all that.
Sporting/hunting is not a right covered by the second amendment, but it's an interesting topic for an IOP forum. I imagine most people here are in favor of fewer regulations in general. I have no personal experience using a gun for sport or hunting, so it's hard for me to understand the appeal or necessity.
...but then again, I'm a recovering from an alcohol addiction--another favorite dangerous and legal American pastime.
Look at Chicago very hard restrictions on this. Lots of him violence. Gun control does not work. Takes away power from good people. Pits it in hands of those you cannot trust at all times.
Hi Barq:
Thought provoking post as always. I am a gun owner. I own two hand guns in various calibers as well as a shotgun and several antique guns that I have inherited. I live in a rural State which has some of the most lax gun laws of any State in the Union. I can conceal carry or open carry a firearm without any permit or training required. We do have some rules prohibiting carrying weapons into State and Federal Courts, and near schools. Other than these few restrictions I live in the wild west of the east!
Gun related crime is very low in my State despite the lack of regulation of firearms. I think that hunters are still the primary consumers here, but there has definitely been a shift towards personal protection in recent years. I fall into the later category of consumer. I'm not a hunter, but I do like to have a sidearm with me when I'm in the deep woods to ward off the coyotes and the occasional rabid fox or raccoon. I do not open carry or conceal carry a handgun in public spaces. I do typically have a loaded handgun in my truck though. Despite the fact that I target practice regularly (and I'm a pretty good shot), I do not think that I possess the skills required to react properly under extreme duress should I become involved in a gunfight in a public space. So, the gun stays in the truck. If the bad guys come after me in my home or vehicle however, I will stand my ground.
Tough talk aside, I really enjoy owning guns. Its one of my hobbies. I get great enjoyment from poking holes in paper or pinging a steel plate target on my personal practice range. As your skills improve it is very rewarding. Hell, I even enjoy cleaning my guns and I admire the simple precision and design of each weapon. Do I understand why a law abiding citizen would want to buy an assault rifle? Yes! They are great fun to shoot (I have only had one opportunity) and enthusiasts spend lots of time and money on building their AR just the way they want. Its a hobby, and in the hands of the primary consumer... most will spend more time talking about their build at gun shows, then actually shooting them (kind of spendy on the ammo side).
All that said above, here is where I show myself to be a true liberal when it comes to gun laws. I have purchased all my firearms through an FFL and I have undergone background checks for each firearm I own. It is so easy and fast, that, once when chatting with a dealer, he had to break into our conversation and tell me "you do know we are done here?". Ha! So when I hear all the whining about sales at gun shows requiring an FFL and a background check, it is just laughable unless you have something to hide, then the humor is lost on me.
- I believe in universal background checks for all gun sales and that the gun show loophole should be closed.
- I believe that anyone on the FBI's Terrorist Watch List and/or No-Fly List should be prevented from purchasing a firearm. Period.
- I believe that people deemed to have "severe mental impairment" should be prevented from purchasing a firearm.
- I oppose the sale of pseudo-automatic rifle modifications such as "Bump Stocks" (or equivalent). Militarized weapons do not belong in the hands of anyone but the military.
I'm so tired of gun violence and the destruction of life vs. someone arguing for "My rights". As a gun owner I recognize that we need to strike a balance between our freedom and the safety all Americans deserve.
Raven