Feel free to ask any and all benzo questions here

[Bowser]

A benzo that is also used for sleep, is halcion. It has a reasonably short half life, so you may not sleep as long as you want to, but I have never woken up groggy, either. I believe I mentioned in another thread that I have a friend who has issues with both falling asleep and staying asleep. They take .25mg of halcion and 50 or 100mg of trazadone, which many doctors will prescribe and is fairly inexpensive. I certainly don't have the credentials of Bowser, but for most of us it is a trial and error process to find the correct product(s), in the correct dosage and possibly combination. Rumor

I agree and debated as to whether or not I should include it. I decided against it because I honestly prefer to stay away from recommending short acting benzos just as a general rule. As far as my personal and those of the people close to me, I find that a single large dose on a regular/somewhat regular basis is far, FAR less likely to result in total dependency than multiple small doses. That's why I went so far as to recommend phenazepam. As I said before, I don't particularly like RC benzos but I suppose phen doesn't really even count ad an RC.

I'd also like to say (somewhat unrelated) that my school of thought differs from most of my peers and superiors in this field. I go on personal experience and anecdotes and things of that nature because I don't often trust the validity of medical studies, particularly regarding addiction and dependency. Hell, most American doctors don't really consider there to be a difference in the two. Either way, my point is this: if I were to search for and post a study linking frequent small dosage vs infrequent moderate dosage stating that the former was more likely to lead to dependence and/or addiction, I could find a study stating the exact opposite with another quick search and then a third stating the risks are, for all intents and purposes, identical.

Essentially I try to stay as objective as possible but seeing as I am not all-knowing I sometimes lose a bit of objectivity and meander off into the land of opinion which I now see I have done there. Thank you for pointing that out and I'll try to keep opinions to a minimum from here on out.

As a continuance of my ramblings, though, I do feel obligated to express my concerns regarding triazolam.

1) an established and well documented problem past the first 4-5 hours of sleep. If you happen to wake up in this frame, chances are you're staying awake, like it or not.

2) rebound insomnia. Generally triazolam is prescribed for around 2 weeks. Usually around day 17 after beginning of treatment, rebound insomnia tends to pop up. This is in a notable amount of patients, enough to make me apprehensive about recommending it to anyone.

3) if you suffer from anxiety in your day to day life, youre going to have a bad time unless you have an established daytime routine med-wise. There is a notable increase in every day anxiety in most people taking triazolam. I can vouch for this and also the rebound insomnia though I personally never had problems with wakefulness, my insomnia has always been rooted in my ability to stop my thoughts from racing as soon as my eyes closed.

Anyway, for anyone that's sticking with me through these bloated posts, I appreciate and admire your dedication to learning (possibly learning is probably a more accurate statement) from the ramblings of an online weirdo. Have a great weekend, everyone!

ETA: Trazodone is indeed an option as well, Rumor, thank you for bringing that up as well. My only problem with traz is the grogginess in the morning. That traz hangover... just awful. My ex also used to be on traz and developed bed wetting problems and eventually had to be put on desmopressin to stop that but itherwise I can't say I have much to say about it on the negative side. Just be careful if you're allergic to tricyclic antidepressants.

[Bowser]

Hey Shmokey, how are you doing?

This is something I can't really address fully. There are a lot of factors here. I will put it this way: I know of not one but 3-4 places from which one can purchase knockoff PEX-2 pill molds.

I've personally had 3 different batches of PEX-2 over the years. The first time I had them, it felt like maybe .75mg of alprazolam. The thing was... I felt warm and calm and just... nice. It was a familiar feeling but I couldn't put my finger on it and honestly, it was strong enough for me to not care too much as long as I wasnt constantly dealing with that floating feeling you get with GAD between attacks, so good enough. That is until about 3 months later when I got a new toy at the place i was employed with at that time. GC-MS (Gas chromatography–mass spectrometry machine), the holy grail of "what the hell is in this pill" investigative tools. It turned out the tablets were something like .87mg/alprazolam, ~50mg tramadol (ultram). Never took those again.

The second time I'm pretty sure they were either total bunk or such low doses per pill that it wasn't worth it. I'm going to guess the latter because that alp taste was there, just very very buried in the taste of fillers and binders. I took 5 over the course of 2 hours before my anxiety decreased to a manageable level. Maybe it was placebo effect, maybe it really just took that much. I'll never know.

The third, they were actually very good. I was surprised as the packaging was different than the other 2 times (the first 2 were in blisters with red print on the foil that read PEX-2 in block lettering with the dose, drug name, etc... third time there was no color and a very stylized PEX-2 printed in an interesting font with the details around the edges). I no longer had personal access to the GC-MS as I had changed jobs but a friend who still worked in the previous place ran them for me and of the 3 tabs tested, the lowest dose was 1.88mg and the highest was 2.07mg.

So the short answer is this.... use your own judgement. Keep in mind, though, the most counterfeited alp tabs are Pfizer's XANAX 2s, GG249s, ONAX 2s and PEX-2s in my experience. Also keep in mind, counterfeited doesn't necessarily equate to "bad," just happens that way most of the time. I know ROA discussion is prohibited but I don't think I'm breaking that rule saying that I NEVER SWALLOW ALP. I let it dissolve. I think anyone taking questionable alp should have a few 100% known to be real tabs on hand to compare with. People like myself actually really like the taste of alp. Most don't. One thing is certain, though. Once you've chewed up a few positively real tabs, that's not a taste you'll ever have a hard time identifying again haha.

I have to say this and I'll try to not be too much of an ass about it. I don't know these people obviously, but some people are full of crap. I've seen people barred out of their minds telling someone else that they took 4+mg and feel nothing. I honestly think it's a... I don't want to risk any crude language.... "whizzing" contest. As in "look how awesome I am, I took this much and I feel nothing" kind of thing. Then again, as I've stated, some people just have different chemistry. As much as some will deny it kicking and screaming, the combo of some people's chemistry mixed with a certain compound CAN AND OFTEN IS affected by the different fillers and binders used by different companies.

Again, this is my actual personal experience. I, for example, have a script for 1mg alp tablets 2-3 times daily. My mother has a script for all 0.5mg 2-3x daily, both prn. Both different manufacturers. If one of us runs out, we can't loan any to each other as 2 of hers barely bring my anxiety to manageable and half of one of mine puts her directly to sleep. So yes, that can also be a factor. As I said, use your judgement. If it works for you and you're not obligated to provide these others with tabs and you're comfortable taking them, who cares if they work for them?

As a final side note, my absolute best experience consistently (aside from the now near-mythical status Gador Alplax [which, by the way, the hype is true regarding... GC-MS routinely put them at 2.35-3+mg] ) has been with Tranax. As always, my opinion/experience/makeup. But they did always work for me and dosages ALWAYS were within a +/- 3% max margin of the stated 1mg. That's better than most US manufactured pills, i'm case you weren't aware.

Breacher - thank you for the kind words! I do love the GABA subject. I cant help but wonder if at some point in the future, benzos will be negated by more research into GABA therapy and results.

[Bowser]

Wow Bowser thank you so much for the extensive reply, the information you supplied has been extremely helpful. I have no past experience with Macromass, but I think I might try there 2mg Onax bars, instead of getting the Pex from the vendor I've been using.
Thank you again for your help!

---

While trying to figure out how to UpRep you Bowser, I accidentally clicked a four star rating on your thread instead of 5, and it won't let me change it. Sorry!!!!!

Haha that's fine, i'm not in this for good ratings, just trying to help. I don't think we're allowed to mention vendor/product combos (maybe?) but in case your post is edited of that info, I can vouch for the ones you mentioned. Have a great weekend!

[Raven]

Hello Bowser:
Great thread, thanks for all the detailed information. My question is:
Does tolerance built up to one form of Benzo carry over to other variants? The variants I am most interested in are Diazepam and Alprazolam.
Raven

[Jmoney12345]

Yea I am curious about the same thing.. can I switch benzos frequently to assist in building a tolerance to one?? Also, can I switch brands, rather than benzos??

[bio2016]

Yea I am curious about the same thing.. can I switch benzos frequently to assist in building a tolerance to one?? Also, can I switch brands, rather than benzos??

Yes Jmoney12345 switching Benzos around does help ,well there is no magical solution for anything ,in one of my posts i was explaining how body ,works when you switch them around, so the body doesnt get accustomed to one benzo and i would say it will be better to switch the benzo ,not the brand ,because formula is the same for the different brands  of the same meds, its mg content or quality of the ingredient changes.  When you change the benzo you get your body to work with a different moleculat formula thats what makes your body react to them again.
Good luck  [b]Jmoney12345,i hope this information will help you a little .[/b]

[Bowser]

Hey Raven and Jmoney12345,

Honestly, bio is absolutely correct for the most part except the complete disassociation between molecular makeup. I personally prefer diaz/alp and the only problem that presents is during one of my tapers (I've mentioned that either here or in another thread; I use the Ashton method to keep my tolerance low and have done so successfully for years). The semi regular switching between the two drives both tolerances up simultaneously thus making it a bitch to taper from diaz with diaz.

Theres always going to be an overlap in fill-in benzos and tolerance, particularly with the specific sub categories. If you take, say, triazoLAM then switch to alprazoLAM, there's going to be virtually identical tolerance raises. LorazePAM to clonazePAM will do the same. For an example, Xanax vs Klonopin. Xanax is a triazolo benzodiazepine. Klonopin is generally known as a plain old benzo, although it technically belongs to another sub family generally and informally called 7-nitro benzodiazepines. So there is some overlap when alternating those, yes, but not a lot. This is why a lot of doctors beginning treatment for GAD will prescribe alp/clon concurrently.

Long story short, there will be some tolerance crossover but not a whole hell of a lot.

There are other sub groups but I'm not totally familiar with but don't recommend like etizolam. That is a thienotriazolodiazepine and from what I understand extremely addictive when compared to most benzos, even more so than alp.

Analog drugs can be helpful for some but again, I don't recommend these. Dependence can build quickly or not at all. Some people are helped, some are. Some develop a cross tolerance, others don't. Too many variables. Clorazepate (Tranxene is an example here.)

As an interesting aside, some drugs prescribed for anxiety have some rather pleasant side effects on occasion. "Classical" benzos are usually great for off-label things. I was prescribed Chlordiazepoxide (Librium) for my anxiety for a short period and it helped me get back on my feet after a bout of SEVERE depression and OCD better than my SSRI ever hoped to. Not the same for everyone, obviously, but I foind it interesting. Librium can also help with a taper like diazepam but it's not nearly as well documented as the Ashton method so I wouldn't recommend that without a doctors help.

So anyway, yep. If you ever want to come off of benzos, ask your doctor about a diazepam or Librium taper, THANK YOU BIO FOR FIELDING THE QUESTIONS FOR ME! And yes, theres a chance your tolerance will raise switching. Not a lot but slightly. Not enough to let it stop you but enough so that you should keep close track to make sure you're not spiraling out of control. I suppose that's true in any scenario, though.

---

Hey Raven and Jmoney12345,

Honestly, bio is absolutely correct for the most part except the complete disassociation between molecular makeup. I personally prefer diaz/alp and the only problem that presents is during one of my tapers (I've mentioned that either here or in another thread; I use the Ashton method to keep my tolerance low and have done so successfully for years). The semi regular switching between the two drives both tolerances up simultaneously thus making it a bitch to taper from diaz with diaz.

Theres always going to be an overlap in fill-in benzos and tolerance, particularly with the specific sub categories. If you take, say, triazoLAM then switch to alprazoLAM, there's going to be virtually identical tolerance raises. LorazePAM to clonazePAM will do the same. For an example, Xanax vs Klonopin. Xanax is a triazolo benzodiazepine. Klonopin is generally known as a plain old benzo, although it technically belongs to another sub family generally and informally called 7-nitro benzodiazepines. So there is some overlap when alternating those, yes, but not a lot. This is why a lot of doctors beginning treatment for GAD will prescribe alp/clon concurrently.

Long story short, there will be some tolerance crossover but not a whole hell of a lot.

There are other sub groups but I'm not totally familiar with but don't recommend like etizolam. That is a thienotriazolodiazepine and from what I understand extremely addictive when compared to most benzos, even more so than alp.

Analog drugs can be helpful for some but again, I don't recommend these. Dependence can build quickly or not at all. Some people are helped, some are. Some develop a cross tolerance, others don't. Too many variables. Clorazepate (Tranxene is an example here.)

As an interesting aside, some drugs prescribed for anxiety have some rather pleasant side effects on occasion. "Classical" benzos are usually great for off-label things. I was prescribed Chlordiazepoxide (Librium) for my anxiety for a short period and it helped me get back on my feet after a bout of SEVERE depression and OCD better than my SSRI ever hoped to. Not the same for everyone, obviously, but I foind it interesting. Librium can also help with a taper like diazepam but it's not nearly as well documented as the Ashton method so I wouldn't recommend that without a doctors help.

So anyway, yep. If you ever want to come off of benzos, ask your doctor about a diazepam or Librium taper, THANK YOU BIO FOR FIELDING THE QUESTIONS FOR ME!  And yes, theres a chance your tolerance will raise switching. Not a lot but slightly. Not enough to let it stop you but enough so that you should keep close track to make sure you're not spiraling out of control. I suppose that's true in any scenario, though.

Oh, one last thing. Apologies for taking a while to respond, like I said I'm usually able to respond in less than 12 hours but yesterday was a 14 hour day so I didn't have much opportunity to get online. Thanks everyone!

[nwiron]

Has anyone tried "DAZ" brand valium in 10mg form? They come in blisters and also in 5mg form. They are so cheap its rediculous. Anyone try em?
Thanks

[Bowser]

Has anyone tried "DAZ" brand valium in 10mg form?  They come in blisters and also in 5mg form.  They are so cheap its rediculous.  Anyone try em?
Thanks

If I'm not mistaken those are the scored blue tabs with no other imprint, aren't they? I can only speak for the 10s but the ones I've had are more or less equal to actual V cut Roches. There's not nearly as much demand for diaz as for Xanax or Klonopin so it's pretty unlikely you'll get anything but real, quality products.

[Bowser]

No problem at all!

The Ashton method is a slow switch to diazepam (or other long-acting, high mg/dose benzo) then a slow taper of 1-3mg every few weeks. All of the basic and somewhat detailed informations can be found here: http://www.benzo.org.uk/manual/

Tapering off to zero is honestly a REALLY bad idea unless you're treading familiar territory. To totally taper even a relatively low dose of benzos safely can take a year. The best way to look at it is this: if you were consistently on 1mg of lorazepam and were to stick to the Ashton method and taper 2mg of diazepam every other week, you'd be down to 5mg of diazepam in 5 weeks. 5mg of diazepam is roughly equivalent to 1mg lorazepam so you'd be down to .5mg when switching back.

I'm not sure if it was this thread or somewhere else or if it was you I brought it up to but have you considered doxylamine succinate? It's essentially a better antihistamine sleep aid than diphenhydramine. Failing that, might i suggest midazolam? That would have to be a small dose to avoid next day grogginess (~5mg) and it's fairly short acting but it's effective. There's also lunesta which I have no experience with but I've heard that it's much better than the z drug it's an isomer of (zopiclone).

Oh and as for tolerance, its only temporary. I've used the Ashton method several times to keep my alprazolam tolerance in check.

I'm not so sure about the full specifics of the Ambien/Ativan question to be totally honest. If I were in your situation I'd most likely alternate each one with something to potentiate the Ativan (if I were to choose to stay with those two) for at least a few weeks before switching to something else. I'm not you obviously so I domt know if that's an option but I would likely try to go 2 nights on one each alternating for a bit before a switch or taper as well but that's just me. Whatever your body lets you do, try it out. Youll have some sleepless nights for sure but tapering and particularly your awful situation (sorry to hear this is all injury induced as well) don't leave you a lot of options that I can think of.