Suggest an UK vendor

[barq2]

Hello barq
Nice to meet you.  Been a bit low with a bug this week so just getting back to speed.  Being new to this forum I guess it's ok to discuss this topic in suggest a vendor (UK) as basically this law is unfortunately shitting down various vendors. The law was meant to come into immediate effect April 6. But Police and Border forces said it was unworkable. But for sure it is absolutely coming into force on May 26th this week. What is now manageable that wasn't as far as the Police are concerned there is no information.  Yes you are right even aromatherapy was under threat ridiculous. "Music" is that a Pyschoactive substance or activity ?   The law doesn't effect anything classified under the medicines act or controlled Meds.  It seems the Nootropics industry or Kratom are the fatalities.  I conpletely agree with banning dangerous substances But what of Alcohol or Cigarettes? To much tax advantages for the powers to be.  

Luckily my preferred life savers would all be classified as Medication. But it's not making life particularly easy and I can see a rise in seizures at customs of Meds not banned u der this rule.   Anyway hope you enjoy your day. 

Hi iovio,

Hope you are over your bug now. Good point about alcohol and cigarettes. Personally I don't want alcohol banned because I like it, but it does reveal the inconsistencies. Like you my needs are medical and not recreational. I have never taken any of the legal highs that supposedly give a buzz/energy.

You are absolutely right, that ban is now in force. It came a bit sooner than I thought.

I had a read through the guidance and psychoactive seems to mean that the substance has been tested in a lab to show it works on the same neurotransmitters as the reference drug. So something like flubromazepam has been shown in the lab to hit the GABA receptors in a similar way to diazepam, therefore it would be regarded as psychoactive.

There are problems with this:
1) A lab test tells us nothing about the bioavailability of the substance - is it actually going to end up in a person's bloodstream?
2) A lab test tells us nothing about whether the substance crosses the blood-brain barrier.
3) A lab test tells us nothing about the actual psychoactive effects in a human. Something might technically have an effect, yet be imperceivable to someone taking it. How psychoactive does it have to be?

Any of 1-3 could raise reasonable doubt, which is of course the crucial issue in a criminal prosecution. Anyone with a psychology degree could punch holes through this law.

4) They have tested a load of the substances that were commonly available as legal highs. But we know that the range is constantly being tweaked. Is this lab seriously going to keep testing all of the new ones that will inevitably emerge? If they do not, then how would the prosecution demonstrate they are psychoactive?

5) There aren't any new resources for the police or border force that I am aware of. I just can't see this being a priority for police. I'm sure they will check head shops have stopped selling. They might have been rather interested in where the left over stock went. It is pretty obvious some UK internet sellers still had massive stock this week. What wasn't sold before the ban is supposed to be safely disposed of. But I seriously doubt that has happened in all cases. It will end up on the streets and TOR.

I guess they will seize more stuff in customs. Some of the things that were previously inspected, taped up, and sent on will presumably be seized. The law is quite clear about the penalties for importation. But I don't know how this will operate in reality. I assume they would differentiate between huge quantities that might be sold, vs a smaller quantity that is indicative of personal use. It isn't clear whether they would prosecute the latter or just send a letter.

So, it raises more questions than it answers. I think this will be determined by case law.

Sorry for the very long post - lots of issues here. Maybe this deserves its own thread?

[iovio]

Hello Barq,

Thanks for the email, I tend to be on the lengthy side of emails too rather than the monosyllabic, so apologies if this goes into one......
By the way I have nothing against people enjoying a drink, I Just can't unfortunately.  But it does simply prove the politics and economics behind the truth. Banning Alcohol or Tobacco would surely cost the revenue Billions in tax and duty. The problem where this new law has gone terribly wrong is what the BBC propaganda machine doesn't tell the average joe is everything else that has been blacklisted without any intellectual rationale behind it. I believe a leading expert wrote a piece in the new scientist that  they were appalled by the uneducated debate in parliament on the subject. 
I didn't use so called legal highs maybe once or twice but completely ineffective to my system,so I guess I didn't have a Pyschoactive effect. 

My concern is as you say due to lack of resources the impact this law may have on alternative medicines which are miraculous for some,like Kratom being seized as the Police or Customs can't discern. All cognitive enhancers are included in the ban. Which is a disgrace. Luckily I can just about argue the case legitimately that everything I use is classified as a medicine.  

All the best

Io

[barq2]

Hello Barq,

Thanks for the email, I tend to be on the lengthy side of emails too rather than the monosyllabic, so apologies if this goes into one......
By the way I have nothing against people enjoying a drink, I Just can't unfortunately.  But it does simply prove the politics and economics behind the truth. Banning Alcohol or Tobacco would surely cost the revenue Billions in tax and duty. The problem where this new law has gone terribly wrong is what the BBC propaganda machine doesn't tell the average joe is everything else that has been blacklisted without any intellectual rationale behind it. I believe a leading expert wrote a piece in the new scientist that  they were appalled by the uneducated debate in parliament on the subject. 
I didn't use so called legal highs maybe once or twice but completely ineffective to my system,so I guess I didn't have a Pyschoactive effect. 

My concern is as you say due to lack of resources the impact this law may have on alternative medicines which are miraculous for some,like Kratom being seized as the Police or Customs can't discern. All cognitive enhancers are included in the ban. Which is a disgrace. Luckily I can just about argue the case legitimately that everything I use is classified as a medicine.  

All the best

Io

Hi Io,

Good to hear from you. Some very good points there. We agree the legislation is very badly written and hypocritical. Two thoughts I had since my last post (sorry it was massively long, I'm verbose by nature AND this is really complicated):

1) I am glad that "spice" type synthetic cannabis is banned. I live near a homeless hostel and I see people on spice every day. It has nothing in common with real cannabis. People on spice behave like they are on crack or meth. Horrible withdrawals means they will do anything to pay for another hit (inc burglary). The antisocial behaviour I was seeing on the streets was just crazy. A friend works in another hostel and says they knew what to do with alcohol and heroin, but things like spice is far worse. So that's probably the one good thing that has come out of this ban.

I really don't want to demonise homeless people - I see them as the victims. I was friendly with a homeless lad who died on the streets. He was doing spice and it broke my heart (I helped pay for his funeral). Spice wasn't his only problem, but there was no viable route to treatment or detox. Speaking of which, I assume there must be thousands of people coming off spice cold turkey.

2) Cognitive enhancers - yes, that seems a pity especially since nootropics seem, for the most part, very safe. I think the ones that are actually medicines will be ok. So getting modafinil shouldn't be an issue - I don't think, or do people have other opinions here? I very occasionally use it in extremely small quantities. Without occasional modafinil I simply could not function well enough to do my job. Piracetam might be ok because that is a medicine. The problem would be a) all the nootropics that aren't medicine, and b) the dosage for piracetam as medicine is far lower than required as a nootropic. I think medical piracetam is 200mg, but people report benefits at 2 or 3g. It would be a crazy expensive.

Aside from modafinil I don't know much about nootropics so would be interested in other opinions on this.

[G.Elias]

I never knew how bad spice was until i watched a short doc on the beebs i player,those guys looked like they had been on crack for years.
The thing with banning stuff is it always opens the doors for criminal gangs to start selling the stuff,then things start going really pear shaped.
I haven't tried anything apart from kratom so the ban doesn't really effect me.In the end,has prohibition ever stopped folk from finding what they either want or need?
Forgot to say hi to others from the UK who i haven't met on here before,not been too well of late so prob missed you joining.

[Goyakla1]

Its a killer blend... Stay the Hell away... Grow ur Own in or outside... Easy and cheap. Light etc dont cost a lot on the net..for further info go to : Icmag.com... Ull get all the knowledge u want. Peace

[Rose5555]

Posting here because it is a UK thread rather than it follows what has been posted beforehand. Some of you who live in the UK are aware of some websites where you can legally order medications every month with a monthly limit on what you can order. One example is buypainrelieversonlineuk.com which I have used for a long time. All of a sudden, and without warning, this site and as far as I can see, most of the others like them, have reduced the amount of some pain relief you can order by half. This comes as a terrible blow to people who need this service. I guess their thinking is that anyone can go to a GP and get the relevant pain relief - after all, you have to have a GP diagnosis of your condition - but many people find it hard to get to their GP, have really high blood pressure brought on by visiting the surgery or have a GP who will diagnose pain but not prescribe painkillers adequate for it.
I think this change of policy, which is presumably meant to tackle addiction, is misguided and wrong.

[barq2]

Rose, good to see you. I don't know the answer to that - how much would they allow you to buy before? Your experience very much reminded me of something posted about diazepam.

Another member, possibly Tommy (sorry if it wasn't you!), mentioned that 10mg diazepam can no longer be prescribed - it has to be multiples of 5mg. Professionally I happen to see a lot of sick notes (sorry, "fit notes") and I'm astonished to see people with panic attacks being prescribed 2mg diazepam. That's not even 2mg tid, but 2mg once a day. That's almost homoeopathic IMHO (although might have a decent placebo given the reputation of the medication). For complicated reasons I've spent a lot of time in pharmacies recently and I can see the 2 and 5mg diazepam on the shelves, but not 10mg.

10mg diazepam is available from several manufacturers in the UK and listed in the current British National Formulary (I can see the NHS prices 87p, 91p, etc). Therefore, I assume it is either locked away, or that it is so rarely scripted it must be ordered in specially. The BNF is quite useful because it indicates typical uses and dosages. I can look up other medications for anyone without BNF access.

Sorry this doesn't address your question Rose, but it perhaps suggests a general trend towards lowering doses/quantities in the UK. Obviously I understand the intention, but it isn't very helpful for those who need more pain relief or like me were stuck on a relatively high dose of diazepam and then abandoned by the NHS. It is ridiculous, I have a job that is socially useful, I do my recycling, I pay all my taxes, I don't even break speed limits or drop litter, but am forced into this legally murky area because of their policies.

All the best,
barq

[G.Elias]

Don't remember if i said it only gets prescribed in 5mg doses,just going on people i have met IRL or on forums,docs are exteremley hesitant to prescribe any dose these days,if folk are on diaz then they are being cut down fast.

They will prescribe other meds that can be addictive but tell you they are not.

My doc told me that the surgery does not prescribe anyone cod pks or any benzos.

Was in there a while ago,met someone who was prescribed 1 Z tablet to help sleep.1!.

So why does the n h s have all these meds but won't prescribe them for genuine health problems?

I get a patch of 5micro grams of bupe an hour,doc told me it was usually given to people with cancer.

Well i hope me and no one else here gets cancer cos this patch has done nothing for my back pain that has gotten worse the last 2 months.

I didnt know that the sites where you can order pks legally here has started to get a bit stricter as i don't like the bunged up side effects so don't order any longer.
I'm surprised folk in the uk can still get any at all legally online,it won't be long before that is closed down sadly.

[barq2]

Don't remember if i said it only gets prescribed in 5mg doses,just going on people i have met IRL or on forums,docs are exteremley hesitant to prescribe any dose these days,if folk are on diaz then they are being cut down fast.

They will prescribe other meds that can be addictive but tell you they are not.

My doc told me that the surgery does not prescribe anyone cod pks or any benzos.

Was in there a while ago,met someone who was prescribed 1 Z tablet to help sleep.1!.

So why does the n h s have all these meds but won't prescribe them for genuine health problems?

I don't remember exactly either. However, I visited a pharmacy in a big city yesterday and they did have diazepam in 10mg boxes. I suspect they might deal with more cases of high level of dependence where 5mg pills wouldn't be practical ("take twenty of these..."). But I've also heard people are made to cut down real fast. Forget the Ashton schedule unless you have a private doctor or other sources. I guess that's why many of us are here.

That's astonishing your surgery doesn't prescribe any codeine. Although I asked mine to prescribe codeine rather than co-codamol and they wouldn't do it. So I get my 60mg of codeine, but mixed up with nasty paracetamol (which is such a mild painkiller, I can't see it has any therapeutic value alongside 60mg of codeine).

The other weird thing is I'm allowed one dosage of tramadol per day, which is much more effective and doesn't make me sleepy. The rest of the time I have to take the co-codamol. I've asked just to be switched to tramadol. Nope. But it would be so much simpler and work better. The fact it is a controlled drug seems to trump everything else.

1 z to go to sleep - wow! I really hope they enjoyed their one night of sleep.

[G.Elias]

Reason they won't prescribe dee ache sea or benzos is cos they are scared of being sued by patients who have become addicted,well Doc,seeing as you got me on other meds that are addictive i may just see you in the claims court,i wont though cos suing the n h s just doesnt sit right with me,if i could sue the doc personally i may well might have done by now.

I know someone who still gets his diaz,10s as well,not sure if they are trying to cut him down at the mo though.