tolerance

[bry686]

hey guys just curious to see where i am with everyone else on this. I know tolerance builds quick but id like to at what mgs does it become unsafe (only benzos nothing else in the system). We all know the scale ... alp 1 mg = clonaz 1 mg = ativan .5mg = Diaz 10mg.

For my anxiety I can take one or two xan no matter the tolerance and it works. But as for helping me fall asleep.... well I usually take 5 to 6 mg and climbing. I started a new job and am trying to get a good night's rest. As for clonaz I've tooken up 14 mg's one night hour after hour popping more trying to fall asleep. At what level does it become unsafe? What's the best benzo for sleeping in your opinion?

And if I take ambien will that reduce my tolerance/physical addiction to benzos? Or is it basically the same?


Lots of questions I was thinking about while I couldn't sleep last night and any feedback would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks

[Raven]

hey guys just curious to see where i am with everyone else on this. I know tolerance builds quick but id like to at what mgs does it become unsafe (only benzos nothing else in the system). We all know the scale ... alp 1 mg = clonaz 1 mg = ativan .5mg = Diaz 10mg.

For my anxiety I can take one or two xan no matter the tolerance and it works. But as for helping me fall asleep.... well I usually take 5 to 6 mg and climbing. I started a new job and am trying to get a good night's rest. As for clonaz I've tooken up 14 mg's one night hour after hour popping more trying to fall asleep. At what level does it become unsafe? What's the best benzo for sleeping in your opinion?

And if I take ambien will that reduce my tolerance/physical addiction to benzos? Or is it basically the same?

Lots of questions I was thinking about while I couldn't sleep last night and any feedback would be greatly appreciated!!

Thanks

bry:
Sorry that none of my input here will be entirely related to sleep deprivation. As with most here, I am dealing with medical issues, but thankfully not related to sleep. For this I feel fortunate. Here is a bit of information that I would like to offer which I hope you can use to better your situation:
1.) You are already using these meds at an unsafe level.
2.) I have GAD and essential tremor, the latter brought on by stress and almost always work related. On days when I know that I will have to deal with high stress levels, then I too will ramp-up my Alp. dose to 5-6 mg. / day. I then retreat back to my baseline dose as soon as possible for routine work days.
3.) The difference between our dosage methods is that when I take a high dose of Alp. my body is pumping adrenaline and the Alp. allows me to use this state of excitement in the form of calm energy and not as a fear response. You, however, are taking an equal dosage and then trying to go to sleep. For me, the only time Alp. makes me sleepy is once the adrenaline rush wears off.
4.) According to The Ashton Manual (recommended reading, Google it) your comparative dose scale is off. That 5 - 6 mg. dose of Alp. you are taking before bedtime is actually the equivalent of 100 - 120 mg. of Diaz. I have never taken that high of a dose of Alp. or Diaz. before bedtime, but I do have more than 10 years of experience with Diaz. and I can tell you that if I were to take anything over 20 mg. of Diaz. before bedtime I would not wake up feeling rested and ready to go! It would be more like passing-out than truly restive sleep (not good!)
5.) One 10 mg. tablet of Diaz. at bedtime can help me to get some quality rest, especially if I am traveling on business, worried about the next day's presentation, stuck in a noisy hotel room ... For some reason, two 325 mg. Bayer aspirin work almost as well for me (could be a placebo effect).
6.) You are in a tight spot. I can only speak in terms of the use of Alp. and Diaz. but, to the best of my knowledge, these Benzos were not developed as sleep aids. They are prescribed as anxiolytics and muscle relaxants. It appears from your post that you have now built a significant tolerance to these meds. and that you are using them for the wrong purpose. You need to change the approach to your problem now. Benzos are not your solution and, unfortunately, insomnia is part of the withdrawal process from these meds.

Why won't your Primary Care Physician help you with this common problem? Is he/she a complete idiot? Get yourself to a good doctor,  get a proper script for your condition, and get away from the Benzos now.

Be Well
Raven.

[bry686]

Thanks raven for the info, I've only been taking these for sleep recently because I've had trouble and with new job n all. I plan to stop for a few weeks all benzos as I am well aware of the terrible withdrawals. The reason I use them for sleep is because they used to work great but seemed to have stopped weith Diaz and clonos, in fact those both never really seemed to do anything even for anxiety. I don't have gad but servere axienty in certian situations.

Where I live I can't find a doctor and only use walk ins and they will won't prescibe benzos, so I've seen counsellors and other methods before my last resort of using iops. I didn't realize after a while they can do the opposite effect of helping you sleep.

Time to take a break and go back to once or twice week I suppose.

[andybones]

Seroqel has helped me for many years (8+) now with insomnia. It can also be good for mood stabilization in higher doses. I am sure there are other great Meds out there but I have only experience with the Seroquel.
Best of luck, insomnia is horrible.
Take care,
Andy

[Bishop]

Hey Bry I would caution you away from the benzos for nightly insomnia. Tolerance goes up and then you have nothing for occasional insomnia. I would recommend Trazadone. It's not a benzo and no doctor would feel uncomfortable writing you a script for it. Good luck!  Insomnia is absolutely horrible and it will only make it worse if you have to worry about your growing tolerance on top of it all.

[MOHFLRSEA]

Hey Bry I would caution you away from the benzos for nightly insomnia. Tolerance goes up and then you have nothing for occasional insomnia. I would recommend Trazadone. It's not a benzo and no doctor would feel uncomfortable writing you a script for it. Good luck!  Insomnia is absolutely horrible and it will only make it worse if you have to worry about your growing tolerance on top of it all.

Agreed I have been prescribed temazepam 30mg, and zolpidem 10mg on alternating nights, also hydroxyzine for bad nights. for the first month sleep was great then the next 2 year I slowly had to add in a alp or daz here and there. Now I can't sleep at all without any(or booze works too), don't spiral down my path. I've managed to stay in purgatory til now, I think I am about to slip into full dependence.

Sometimes life suck and if you are like me stress means sleep is hard. Try doxylamine and diphenhydramine, or trazodone. But first and foremost you should talk to a sleep specialist or at least you primary care, tell them your issues. On your first try they may offer you benzos, but will likely try something less dependence building first.

[bry686]

I appreciate everyones input, I stopped taking all benzos just as a precaution for 5 days without any noticeable symptoms, other then i felt very agitated at times (could that be a symptom?) Last few days I just been taking a couple nytols and its been working great. I think my tolerance just builds too fast but especially for vals and clonz. I wont be using benzos for sleep anymore, just my anxiety attacks. But on a side note has anyone noticed val and clonz dont do much? I know these are much longer lasting but are they also weaker than xan when it comes to anxiety? Its a shame but they've never really done much for me so ill be sticking with xan or ati.

[devlspawn]

I have found that Benzos help me sleep but it is not quality sleep.  I recently got a health tracking band and whenever I take a benzo it shows me sleeping but very few minutes of deep sleep.  I find I feel better on just taking melatonin.  I don't feel like I slept but the tracker shows more deep sleep and I feel better the next day.

[Raven]

I have found that Benzos help me sleep but it is not quality sleep.  I recently got a health tracking band and whenever I take a benzo it shows me sleeping but very few minutes of deep sleep.  I find I feel better on just taking melatonin.  I don't feel like I slept but the tracker shows more deep sleep and I feel better the next day.

devlspawn:
Really interesting post which validates much of what I have always believed to be the case. Load up on benzos before bedtime and you will very likely conk-out. However, you will also wake up the next morning wondering what day it is and, for me, other amnesia type effects will manifest themselves (not good).

One, 10 Mg. Valium does help me sleep w/o side effects, but I only use this method if I have a stressful morning event to deal with. Two 325 Mg. aspirin always put me to sleep and keep me sleeping w/o interruption. Why? I don't know.

If you are into trying natural remedies, then I have always had great success in eating 5-10 dried figs at least an hour before bedtime. Tasty and lots of fiber too!

Finally, a question for you devlspawn, Is the "tracking band" you are using like a Fitbit?

Thanks.
Raven

---

SNIP... But always keep trying natural ways to get "normal" sleep. I wouldn't suggest ever relying totally on a med.
It's not a good place to be in.

Audrey, I am in complete agreement with you. Always try to use natural remedies to get your "normal" sleep. Above all, I recommend that you get some exercise

I know there are a lot of reasons why you are not able to put aside time for some decent exercise. It is a problem we all share. Our lives all tend to be so busy. BUT, I guarantee that if you start to exercise regularly, then you will begin to sleep normally.

Be Well
Raven

[bry686]

Well Im happy to say because of this forum I stopped taking any benzo for sleep Im also working full time now, so im  alot more tired at nights lol. I find sleep ez work great for me when needed. Im super afraid of having withdrawal from benzos. From now on, just for my anxiety. Thanks guys