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Drug Schedules
#1
I know I was wondering which drug fell into which catagory and why. I'm sure someone else is as well ...


Drug Schedules Drugs, substances, and certain chemicals used to make drugs are classified into five (5) distinct categories or schedules depending upon the drug’s acceptable medical use and the drug’s abuse or dependency potential.
The abuse rate is a determinate factor in the scheduling of the drug; for example, Schedule I drugs are considered the most dangerous class of drugs with a high potential for abuse and potentially severe psychological and/or physical dependence.
As the drug schedule changes-- Schedule II, Schedule III, etc., so does the abuse potential-- Schedule V drugs represents the least potential for abuse.
A Listing of drugs and their schedule are located at Controlled Substance Act (CSA) Scheduling or CSA Scheduling by Alphabetical Order. These lists describes the basic or parent chemical and do not necessarily describe the salts, isomers and salts of isomers, esters, ethers and derivatives which may also be classified as controlled substances. These lists are intended as general references and are not comprehensive listings of all controlled substances.
Please note that a substance need not be listed as a controlled substance to be treated as a Schedule I substance for criminal prosecution. A controlled substance analogue is a substance which is intended for human consumption and is structurally or pharmacologically substantially similar to or is represented as being similar to a Schedule I or Schedule II substance and is not an approved medication in the United States.
(See 21 U.S.C. §802(32)(A) for the definition of a controlled substance analogue and 21 U.S.C.
§813 for the schedule.)

Schedule I

Schedule I drugs, substances, or chemicals are
defined as drugs with no currently accepted
medical use and a high potential for abuse.
Schedule I drugs are the most dangerous drugs of all the drug schedules with potentially severe psychological or physical dependence. Some examples of Schedule I drugs are:

heroin, lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD), marijuana (cannabis), 3,4- methylenedioxymethamphetamine (ecstasy), methaqualone, and peyote


Schedule II

Schedule II drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with a high potential for abuse, less abuse potential than Schedule I drugs, with use potentially leading to severe psychological or physical dependence. These drugs are also considered dangerous. Some examples of Schedule II drugs are:

Combination products with less than 15 milligrams of hydrocodone per dosage unit (Vicodin), cocaine, methamphetamine, methadone, hydromorphone (Dilaudid), meperidine (Demerol), oxycodone (OxyContin), fentanyl, Dexedrine, Adderall, and Ritalin


Schedule III

Schedule III drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with a moderate to low potential for physical and psychological dependence. Schedule III drugs abuse potential is less than Schedule I and Schedule II drugs but more than Schedule IV. Some examples of Schedule III drugs are:

Products containing less than 90 milligrams of codeine per dosage unit (Tylenol with codeine), ketamine, anabolic steroids, testosterone


Schedule IV

Schedule IV drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with a low potential for abuse and low risk of dependence. Some examples of Schedule IV drugs are:

Xanax, Soma, Darvon, Darvocet, Valium, Ativan, Talwin, Ambien, Tramadol


Schedule V

Schedule V drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with lower potential for abuse than Schedule IV and consist of preparations containing limited quantities of certain narcotics. Schedule V drugs are generally used for antidiarrheal, antitussive, and analgesic purposes. Some examples of Schedule V drugs are:

cough preparations with less than 200 milligrams of codeine or per 100 milliliters (Robitussin AC), Lomotil, Motofen, Lyrica, Parepectolin
Semper Fidelis

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#2
Good post, thanks for sharing.
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#3
If you don't mind, let me add as to how scheduling and rescheduling works (and what you can do to...well... at least get an explanation).

Congress delegated powers via DOJ to schedule drugs under the CSA to the DEA in the early 70s. That's pretty clear. Of course, that doesn't mean that can do things nilly willy, and the DEA does a lot of things, not just raids that you see on TV, not just reprimanding our doctors for no good reason. They're an administrative agency who is generally given what's called "Chevron Deference" in their decisionmaking - meaning (in very simple terms) unless something goes way wrong, courts will defer to their decision. The Chevron decision is probably the most cited decision in U.S. history and you shouldn't read it unless you're bored as hell or an admin nerd like me.

Every document they've published and are required to be published are online. They are here: https://www.federalregister.gov/agencies...nistration

There are of course things they don't publish. You can submit a FOIA. You may not hear back for a year. But let's just look at the stuff they do publish first. They generally publish three kinds of documents: notices, rules, and proposed rules. Proposed rules are frequently open by law for interested parties aka Americans at large to comment in order for the agency to address issues and further refine rules. Rules are final decisions. Notices are also final decisions but it's not so much rulemaking but rather telling you the status of something.

Furthermore, only some proposed rules - namely legislative rules - are open to notice and commentary. These open new legal obligations and are required to have public input. I comment on every proposed leg rule that I have any sort of expertise or stake in. It'd be cool if you can do the same. On the other hand, interpretive rules are simply rules that just reword or reemphasize certain preexisting obligations and rule and do not require this process. This kind of stuff goes to court all the time.

Hope you're not bored yet. Let me show you what they usually do. Tons of notices. Let's look at this: 

The DEA manages substance distribution and manufacturing and importing (this is why love letters exist, some simply haven't paid the proper import duties). One of their jobs is to determine who can distribute medication and who can't. https://www.federalregister.gov/articles...order#h-10 is a good example. Dr. Zaidi is a pain doc in Ohio who gave out Oxy liberally and was busted in a sting and the case is about whether he's losing his license alongside a lot of other procedural stuff. This is one type of thing they publish.

They register importers of medication (https://www.federalregister.gov/articles...ticals-inc). Also, manufacturers need to register as well (https://www.federalregister.gov/articles...ed-usa-llc).

Then we get to the good part. This is a sample proposed legislative rule that requires notice and commentary. Basically:

"The proposed year 2016 aggregate production quotas and assessment of annual needs represent those quantitiesof schedule I and II controlled substances, and the list I chemicals ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, and phenylpropanolamine, to be manufactured in the United States in 2016 to provide for the estimated medical, scientific, research, and industrial needs of the United States, lawful export requirements, and the establishment and maintenance of reserve stocks. These proposals include estimated imports of ephedrine, pseudoephedrine, and phenylpropanolamine but do not include estimated imports of controlled substances for use in industrial processes."

They would like to set numbers as to how much of each they can manufacture or import here. https://www.federalregister.gov/articles...essment-of

Then you can comment on whether it's too much or too little. With cause, of course.


Ok, let's look at actual scheduling. In May, the DEA gave notice that they will but aceytl-fentanyl on the temporary schedule I list as an emergency. Here's the notice: https://www.federalregister.gov/articles...schedule-i and for public health reasons it could be placed there for 3 years without notice or commentary for 3 years, but obviously they have to outline the reasons, which they did here. The final order came in on 7/17. https://www.federalregister.gov/articles...schedule-i

They also take things off like this: https://www.federalregister.gov/articles...val-of-123 I have no idea what this is but they apparently found no need to schedule it and after notice and commentary, will probably unschedule it.

What's disheartening is that unlike many other agencies they get what they want usually. USCIS reduced its 18 page green card application to six last few weeks, but since the DEA's purview is so narrow, there are few ways to convincingly make an argument to not schedule something.

An example would be Tramadol. It was scheduled into Schedule IV in 2013. Since it was a formal rulemaking process, there was the opportunity for interested parties to ask for a hearing, which happened. https://www.federalregister.gov/articles...chedule-iv

"Individuals Are Taking Tramadol in Amounts Sufficient To Create a Hazard to Their Health or to the Safety of Other Individuals or to the Community"

"There Is a Significant Diversion of Tramadol From Legitimate Drug Channels"

"Individuals Are Taking Tramadol on Their Own Initiative Rather Than on the Basis of Medical Advice From a Practitioner Licensed by Law to Administer Such Drugs"

"Tramadol is so Related in Its Action to a Drug or Other Substance Already Listed as Having a Potential for Abuse To Make It Likely That It Will Have the Same Potential for Abuse as Such Substance, Thus Making It Reasonable To Assume That There May Be Significant Diversions From Legitimate Channels, Significant Use Contrary to or Without Medical Advice, or That It Has a Substantial Capability of Creating Hazards to the Health of the User or to the Safety of the Community"

Since these are, essentially, all true but silly reasoning (because it happens to most drugs), well, Tramadol ultimately was Schedule IVed. However, a review process did find that it did not have the harmful abilities of Schedule III or II opoids and Schedule IV was appropriate. Small victories.,

So now you know the gist of what the DEA does and how they do it.. They do other things like listing out what;s scheduled, they do research, however, when I submitted a commentary about patient access of rescheduling Opiate/APAP from 3 to 2 (legit conern, I worked in Indian Tribal Court that summer, very remote), the answer was "that's none of our business".

I hope this gives you a bit more understanding of how the Scheduling system works. One can petition to unschedule things, but it requires a fair bit of work and hard time for tough crime, right?
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#4
It is good info, Ice. I think they got Xanax wrong as a Schedule IV however.

"Schedule IV drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with a low potential for abuse and low risk of dependence."

Xanax must be one of the most abused prescription drugs on the market and definitely is one of the highest risk of dependence. It has to be in the top 10.
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#5
Hey Zander! Glad to see ya back on the boards,.. I'd have to agree with you on that zanax issue ... I mean everybody seems to be on one benzo or another ...
Maybe it's an old "schedule" ...


(07-27-2015, 11:07 PM)Zander Wrote: It is good info, Ice. I think they got Xanax wrong as a Schedule IV however.

"Schedule IV drugs, substances, or chemicals are defined as drugs with a low potential for abuse and low risk of dependence."

Xanax must be one of the most abused prescription drugs on the market and definitely is one of the highest risk of dependence. It has to be in the top 10.
Semper Fidelis

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#6
Howdy Ice! Glad to be back... Good to see you, although I really can't see you....figure of speech.... =) You actually posted the current schedule, I think it just needs some updating. I cannot believe they have marijuana as a Schedule 1. What are they thinking?

I believe Kitty is correct and when they do update Xanax will move up the list. I was curious so I Googled "most abused drugs with highest potential for dependence." Xanax was in the top ten on all list, varying between 4th and 9th on the lists I looked at. Curiously oxycodone was #1 on most lists. That surprised me, but I've never taken any pain pills so I had no clue it was so addictive and abused.

C'yall on the threads.
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#7
First of all, sorry for the wall of text, when I'm a bit anxious I tend to research and write. It's great for work but it takes a brave person to read everything.

Oh, the DEA definitely knows that Alprazolam has great abuse potential. Back when the DEA decided to open Notice and Commentary for rescheduling Opioid/APAP drugs from Schedule III to II I (https://www.federalregister.gov/articles...edule#h-13) actually had some legitimate concerns regarding some of my clients - they lived in very rural areas, had issues with transport and access to doctors, and the lack of refills really would screw them in many ways, so of course I, as well as quite a few people, sent in comments to the DEA in regards to such concerns.

The DEA did respond very well (albeit not in the way we hoped). They did the whole analysis and cited what they're looking for and not looking for. I don't agree with their rationale but I understand their mission does not cover what we were arguing.

DEA does an 8 factor review pursuant to 21 USC 811©. To save you time this is the list:

© Factors determinative of control or removal from schedules

In making any finding under subsection (a) of this section or under subsection (b) of section 812 of this title, the Attorney General shall consider the following factors with respect to each drug or other substance proposed to be controlled or removed from the schedules:

(1) Its actual or relative potential for abuse.

(2) Scientific evidence of its pharmacological effect, if known.

(3) The state of current scientific knowledge regarding the drug or other substance.

(4) Its history and current pattern of abuse.

(5) The scope, duration, and significance of abuse.

(6) What, if any, risk there is to the public health.

(7) Its psychic or physiological dependence liability.

(8) Whether the substance is an immediate precursor of a substance already controlled under this subchapter.


Of course, not all the terms are defined, but here's what they said:

"(a) Individuals are taking the drug or other substance in amounts sufficient to create a hazard to their health or to the safety of other individuals or to the community; or
(b) There is a significant diversion of the drug or other substance from legitimate drug channels; or
© Individuals are taking the drug or other substance on their own initiative rather than on the basis of medical advice from a practitioner licensed by law to administer such drugs; or
(d) The drug is so related in its action to a drug or other substance already listed as having a potential for abuse to make it likely that it will have the same potential for abuse as such substance, thus making it reasonable to assume that there may be significant diversions from legitimate channels, significant use contrary to or without medical advice, or that it has a substantial capability of creating hazards to the health of the user or to the safety of the community.
The DEA considered the HHS's evaluation and all other relevant data, including data related to the above mentioned criteria, and finds that:Show citation box
(a) Individuals are using HCPs in amounts sufficient to create a hazard to their health, to the safety of other individuals, or to the community."

I think Alprazolam (As well as several other benzos) certainly fir the profile here. While Alprazolam itself does not pose much of a danger of overdose, its mixing certainly does. There's anecdotal evidence that there's significant diversion and use outside of medical advice. They are not necessarily related to a higher scheduled substance - argument for Methaqualone in effects but chemically certainly dissimlar, We know of its potential for abuse and history and pattern of abuse, there's plenty of scientific literature on it, and abuse is both significant and poses a risk to public health certainly. Its dependence potential is very high on its own and certainly from this analysis the case can be made that it should be scheduled higher.

In fact the DEA itself recognizes regularly that Alprazolam is regualrly diverted and gets people high similar to Schedule III substances.
"Still later in his testimony, when no question was pending, the DI proceeded to state that even aside from the Suboxone prescriptions, the 241 prescriptions at issue were suspicious because they were for oxycodone and alprazolam, which are highly abused drugs. " https://www.federalregister.gov/articles...-and-order

"In the second human abuse potential study, perampanel produced subjective responses similar to or greater than those produced by alprazolam (Schedule IV) and ketamine (Schedule III). Perampanel (8, 24, and 36 mg), ketamine (Schedule III) (100 mg), alprazolam (Schedule IV) (1.5 and 3 mg), and placebo were administered to 34 subjects who were current recreational poly-drug users with histories of CNS depressant and psychedelic drug use. The effects of perampanel (24 and 36 mg) on the drug-liking Visual Analogue Scale (VAS) were higher than that of alprazolam (Schedule IV) (1.5 and 3 mg) and similar to ketamine (Schedule III) (100 mg). For the Addiction Research Center Inventory Morphine-Benzedrine Group (ARCI MBG) (euphoria) measure, the responses produced by perampanel (24 and 36 mg) were comparable to those produced by alprazolam (Schedule IV) (3 mg) and ketamine (Schedule III) (100 mg), indicating that perampanel produces euphoria comparable to that produced by alprazolam (Schedule IV) and ketamine (Schedule III). The rates reported for euphoria AEs were 37 percent for the 8 mg dose and 46 percent for the 24 and 36 mg doses of perampanel. The rates reported for euphoria AEs for 3 mg alprazolam (Schedule IV) and 100 mg ketamine (Schedule III), were 13 percent and 89 percent, respectively.
For the measure of feeling “high” on a VAS, perampanel (24 and 36 mg) produced responses that were comparable to those for ketamine (Schedule III) (100 mg) and alprazolam (Schedule IV) (1.5 and 3 mg). Perampanel (36 mg) was long-acting for the sedation and “high” effects. They lasted at least 22 hours. It was demonstrated that perampanel causedNMDA-antagonist specific effects, such as “floating,” “spaced out,” “detached,” and “feeling happy,” that were similar to those of ketamine (Schedule III) and greater than those of alprazolam (Schedule IV) (1.5 and 3 mg). The duration of these effects was longer for perampanel (24 and 36 mg) than for ketamine (Schedule III) (100 mg): 24 to 48 hours compared to 3 hours, respectively. The measures of “sedation,” “confused,” “slowed down,” “attention span,” and “clear crisp vision” following doses of 24 and 36 mg perampanel were similar to, or greater than, alprazolam (Schedule IV), and greater than ketamine (Schedule III). The duration of effects of higher doses of perampanel on the majority of measures was longer than for 3 mg alprazolam (Schedule IV) and 100 mg ketamine (Schedule III)."

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles...hedule-iii

"The “abuse frequency ratio,” calculated as the ratio of nonmedical use related annual emergency department visits (as reported in DAWN) to the total number of annual prescriptions for pregabalin is less than that for the Schedule IV drug, alprazolam. Further, because ezogabine has abuse-related human and animal data in its NDA file similar to data generated for pregabalin, ezogabine is likely to have an abuse potential similar to pregabalin. The “abuse frequency ratios” for pregabalin range from 29 to 47, while those for alprazolam are approximately three to six times higher, ranging from 160 to 235. Thus, pregabalin was placed into Schedule V based both on abuse-related human and animal data submitted in its NDA and by epidemiological data which justified placement relative to drugs in Schedule IV. Given that ezogabine has abuse-related human and animal data in its NDA file similar to the data generated by pregabalin, it is likely that ezogabine will have an abuse potential similar to this Schedule V drug."

https://www.federalregister.gov/articles...schedule-v

However, at the same time, the DEA indicates (16 years ago, btw) that benzos were not used for recreational purposes. "The petitioner asserts that “common household painkillers” and benzodiazepines produce more ED visits than marijuana and that marijuana users are no more likely to be seen in EDsthan other chronic drug users. DAWN data do not confirm the petitioner's assertions. For 1999, the estimated rate of mentions of selected drugs per 100,000 population is 69.4 for cocaine, 35.8 for marijuana/hashish, 34.7 for heroin/morphine, 17.5 for alprazolam/diazepam/lorazepam, and 16.9 for aspirin/acetaminophen. The estimated rate of mentions of marijuana/hashish per 100,000 population is similar to that of heroin/morphine, but approximately twice that of aspirin/acetaminophen and that of alprazolam/diazepam/ lorazepam. However, marijuana estimated rate of mentions/100,000 population is approximately half that of cocaine.
These drugs are easily distinguished by the motivation for their use. In 1999, marijuana/hashish mentions were related to episodes in which the motive for drug intake was primarily dependence (34.2%) followed by recreational use (28%), suicide (11.5%) and other psychic effects (8.1%). DAWN defines “psychic effects” as a conscious action to use a drug to improve or enhance any physical, emotional, or social situation or condition. The use of a drug for experimentation or to enhance a social situation, as well as the use of drugs to enhance or improve any mental, emotional, or physical state, is reported to DAWN under this category. Examples of the latter include anxiety, stay awake, help to study, weight control, reduce pain and to induce sleep. A different pattern is observed for tranquilizers (alprazolam/diazepam/lorazepam) and aspirin/acetamipnophen. Alprazolam/diazepam/lorazepam mentions were primarily related to episodes where the motive for drug intake was primarily suicide (approximately 58%), followed by dependence (approximately 17%), other psychic effects (approximately 11%), and recreational use (approximately 5%). For the use of aspirin/acetaminophen the primary motive of the episode was suicide (80%), other psychic effects (9%) and recreational use (2%)." https://www.federalregister.gov/articles...f-petition

Hell, citizens regularly comment and write to the FDA about Alprazolam. Here's one from June 15. http://www.regulations.gov/#!documentDet...-0091-0122

The response:

"FDA has reviewed the evidence and information provided in the Petition and we do not  agree that it warrants the labeling change you seek, nor does it support your contention that such a labeling change would prevent physical dependency and withdrawal symptoms. The Petition is focused on the use of benzodiazepines to treat anxiety disorders, many of which are chronic  in nature. These disorders often have a relapsing course and may need frequent, regular treatment.  For example, some benzodiazepines are indicated for the treatment of generalized anxiety disorder (GAD) and panic disorder, both of which are chronic conditions and can be treated for up to 8 months with benzodiazepines.

In addition, a review of the literature supports chronic use of many benzodiazepines in the treatment of GAD, panic disorder, and social anxiety disorder.In light of their effective use in controlling the symptoms ofthese chronic conditions, FDA believes it would be clinically inappropriate and overly restrictive to recommend a maximum duration of use for benzodiazepines of 2 to 4 weeks as the Petition requests.

We also disagree with your characterization of the current language in benzodiazepine labeling regarding duration of use as "vague and undefined." The labeling for all benzodiazepine products contains language noting that the product has not been studied  for long-term use and that physicians should periodically reevaluate the long-term utility  of the drug for each individual patient.

FDA believes that these statements in the labeling are sufficient to alert physicians to be vigilant in monitoring their patients who  take benzodiazepines for extended periods of time.  After consideration of the information provided in your Petition, the Agency continues to believe that the current labeling for each benzodiazepine product contains the essential scientific information needed for the safe and effective use of that drug to help prevent physical dependency  and withdrawal symptoms and, as such, the addition of the information you request to be added to the labeling is not warranted to address these particular issues.  In addition, the Petition provides no evidence that "2 to 4 weeks" is the appropriate duration of use to
prevent physical dependency and withdrawal symptoms for all benzodiazepine products."


Frankly, looking at publications from the DEA, FDA, and everyone else, it seems that the rationale why Alp or any other benzos are Schedule IV instead of anything else seems to be the following:

1) It's been like this for ages and we can't change it now
2) It's not as problematic as the Schedule IIIs we have now
3) The WHO seems to be ok with it being Schedule III
4) Individual doctors should know better and it's not really our problem

I actually don't think anything will get moved to Schedule III. The DEA is focused on Meth and Opioids right now. The FDA, looking at their denial letter from the citizen peition to Ms. Robin, clearly has some misconceptions as to the nature of how benzodiazepines in general are being prescribed and what withdrawals are like (I had a 5 year 4mg a day Xanax script, I kicked it CT and had a seizure and withdrawals lasted a year, so statements like

"FDA continues to believe that long-term use ofbenzodiazepines may be appropriate for
some patients who suffer from chronic conditions for which these drugs are indicated.
We disagree with your contention that, generally, benzodiazepines "[are] not meant for
use for more than two to four weeks" or else patients will become physically dependent
and experience withdrawal. For the reasons discussed above, your request is denied. "


and

"In response to the claims in the Petition regarding protracted withdrawal, FDA conducted
an independent literature review. According to our research, the literature does not
support the existence of a "protracted" benzodiazepine withdrawal syndrome. One study
The labeling for Ativan (lorazepam) states, "[Withdrawal] Symptoms reported following
discontinuation ofbenzodiazepines include headache, anxiety, tension, depression, insomnia,
restlessness, confusion, irritability, sweating, rebound phenomena, dysphoria, dizziness, derealization,
depersonalization, hyperacusis, numbness/tingling of extremities, hypersensitivity to light, noise, and
physical contact/perceptual changes, involuntary movements, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, loss of
appetite, hallucinations/delirium, convulsions/seizures, tremor, abdominal cramps, myalgia, agitation,
palpitations, tachycardia, panic attacks, vertigo, hyperreflexia, short-term memory loss, and
hyperthermia. Withdrawal symptoms (e.g. rebound insomnia) can appear following cessation of
recommended doses after as little as one week of therapy."
The labeling for Serax (oxazepam) states, "Withdrawal symptoms, similar in character to those noted
with barbiturates and alcohol (convulsions, tremor, abdominal and muscle cramps, vomiting, and
sweating), have occurred following abrupt discontinuation of oxazepam."
The labeling for Librium (chlordiazepoxide) states, "Withdrawal symptoms, similar in character to
those noted with barbiturates and alcohol (convulsions, tremor, abdominal and muscle cramps,
vomiting and sweating), have occurred following abrupt discontinuance of chlordiazepoxide."
by Kaplan states that withdrawal symptoms usually disappear over a few weeks.

Another study by Shader says that the withdrawal syndrome is generally mild and always
self-limited and that, after withdrawal is complete, patients recover completely without
residual sequelae. Shader concludes that, "there is no reliable evidence to support the
existence of post withdrawal syndrome. Experimental neuropharmacologic studies
document that all the side-effects of benzodiazepines, whether behavioral or
neurochemical, disappear within several days or weeks after the drug is eliminated. The
weight of evidence indicates that any new symptoms that persist for more than two
months after the last dose of a benzodiazepine either are part of the premorbid condition
or have appeared by coincidence or as a consequence of the natural history of the
underlying illness."

Yet another study by Mattilla-Evenden et al. found that the
symptoms reported as evidence of benzodiazepine-induced psychiatric morbidity seemed
in most cases to have been a feature of pre-existing psychopathology that became more
manifest after discontinuation of benzodiazepine treatment.

Based on our review of the literature, FDA cannot conclude that a "protracted"
withdrawal syndrome results from use of benzodiazepine products. Therefore, adding a
warning regarding a "protracted" withdrawal syndrome to the labeling for each
benzodiazepine would not be appropriate and your request is denied.

Are crazy and laughable, but if that's where we are, I don't think we'll be going anywhere anytime soon, unfortunately.
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#8
Thank you Jintje ... Man you do go into great detai! .. But having said that, you chock it full with valuable information that a lot of folks here might never have known ...

You sir are a very fine asset to this forum and I for one appreciate the effort you put into your posts .. Not only do you take the time to explain things in depth, you also include points of reference to validate your responces ... This all takes a great deal to do it right as you, my friend, do with a style that makes it easy to comprehend ...

Thanks Jimjte ....

Oh yeah .. Let me say this ... I'm sure you did excellent on your BAR exam and will undoubtly make one hell of a good atty!! Not sure what type of law you'll practice, but I'm quite sure you will put in the same sort of zest into it as you do here and therefore succeed amazingly!!

Your soon to be clients, I don't think, could do any better than retaining your services ...

I am so glad to have been here and had the opportunity to have been at the same forum you haunt! ...

So let me be the first to congradulate you on "passing" the BAR ... That in itselt is no small accomplishment!! You sir will go far .. Hell we may even see you on the nightly news one day and get to gloat that we were all part of the same IOP!!
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#9
Haha thanks Ice! I hope I passed it, at least, if not then I'll try again and again until I do! Meanwhile if there's anything I can do to be more thorough and explain the data and information that's available I'll do my best, I think people deserve to know how decisions are made and what rationales are behind the policy and the actions. 

I'm at a firm that does administrative law against government agencies, so this is kind of what I do anyway! Except my bosses are the people affected by policy decisions (and my supervising attorneys, of course) and I think they deserve to get at least a full explanation, just like I think you guys all deserve as much information as is available as to why the government agencies make certain decisions and not others, make certain completely logical and sensible ones and maddeningly crazy nonsensical ones on the flipside.

Can't always fight city hall, but you can at least have city hall explain what the hell is going on, heh.
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#10
Brother ... I'm almost sure you passed your BAR exam ... I do not see how anyone as informed and well read as yourself could possibly fail ... I think our little site is quite lucky that you passed by and stayed ... We are all benifiting from the knowlege you posess ... For that I am grateful ... I enjoy reading you posts, because I just know you're shooting straight from the hip and telling it like it is ...

Thanks Jimtje for the info you give to us so freely ... It does not fall on deaf ears(or in this case blind eyes...lol)


(08-01-2015, 11:49 AM)jimtje Wrote: Haha thanks Ice! I hope I passed it, at least, if not then I'll try again and again until I do! Meanwhile if there's anything I can do to be more thorough and explain the data and information that's available I'll do my best, I think people deserve to know how decisions are made and what rationales are behind the policy and the actions. 

I'm at a firm that does administrative law against government agencies, so this is kind of what I do anyway! Except my bosses are the people affected by policy decisions (and my supervising attorneys, of course) and I think they deserve to get at least a full explanation, just like I think you guys all deserve as much information as is available as to why the government agencies make certain decisions and not others, make certain completely logical and sensible ones and maddeningly crazy nonsensical ones on the flipside.

Can't always fight city hall, but you can at least have city hall explain what the hell is going on, heh.
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