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FORGIVENESS.....  
then what?

Does anyone here have difficulty forgiving?  Or just forgetting?   LOL

When is "I'm sorry" not enough anymore?  Or perhaps irrelevant to whether you can be around that person?

At what point does one forgive BUT  walk away for own well-being ?

Yes, we must struggle to forgive   BUT  does one Ever allow person (who hurt them deeply, betrayed them) to re-enter one's life?
Under what conditions?  What ways can one protect self if decide to give someone another chance?

Once finally closing the door to heartbreak, disillusionment and truly letting go (not a short or easy process!) - can that door ever open again in a healthy way?    What if it just lets a person in for More Heartbreak?


I had a foster daughter many years ago.  I promised her father before he died, I'd keep an eye out for her (she was only 6 yrs old).
For over 10 years, I was the mother to her that her biological junkie mother never was.... (she od'd few yrs ago I heard)
I had to watch my step around her mother cuz I had no right to her.  Her mom was glad to have free babysitter, someone to buy school supplies & clothes & presents & food  (anything she could use me for.... and often I Let her to keep R. in my life)
(I have questioned myself million times for not having CPS remove her Even if she'd go to strangers, but foster care system bad too)

This little girl was the daughter I never had.   I Loved her with my entire heart.  I would've died for her.
She didn't have anything kids need/deserve, not even enough food (her mom traded food stamps for drugs)
For many years, I clothed and fed this child.   Even paid for private school one year to help her with learning disability
Often I had custody of her when her mom in jail different times.  She stayed at my house more than hers. 
The school counselor called me when she had problems instead of the mother (we knew each other).

I gave her everything I would've given my own daughter.  She spent holidays with me cuz there was Never a tree, presents, or food at her house.  I had to watch because she'd over-eat and vomit - from wanting food.
Later she told me she'd go to the refrigerator, look, no food.  Told me she'd repeatedly check cabinets/refrig with that magical thinking children have, hoping she'd open door and food would be there.
My own sons complained at # of her presents until I asked how would they like to be 9 yrs old and know Christmas morning there wouldn't be a tree or single present, not even a warm breakfast - they never complained about her gifts again.
She'd get hyper when upset and I was only one who could discern what was going on - Ex. hyper every yr when school started til I learned all other kids had supplies first day, she never did and was just given whatever.... From then on she had all her supplies and wore Nice clothes & shoes to school.  The more I did for her, the less her mother did (that's the way of it, right?  But I only saw that beautiful little girl w/o a father who needed someone to love her....  for a while I know she really loved me, too....  Now, I don't know what to believe)

Had a friend who coached girls' softball about 30 miles from city - I took her there to play ball so people could learn to like her for who she was, not who her infamous mother was....  She had true athletic talent and coach said she had real chance at scholarship playing softball.   She hit grand slam homerun in final game last inning, to win tournament her first year playing softball.   All the parents commented on how well-behaved and what a  lovely child she was....  Watching her self-esteem grow with love and nurturing...
Some many memories - teaching her to swim, all the things mothers & daughters do (that mine never did with me)

She brought me such joy and I had high hopes she could be rescued from the life her mother led.

When my husband became ill, I spent less time with her - probably when she needed me most  ?
She ended up on drugs, running away from home, quitting school, living in a "crack" house selling her body for drugs.
Habitual runaway, she ended up in foster care (I was living in different state at the time).
I learned about the foster care and was able to obtain custody of her after 2 yrs   (not until after her rape & abuse in foster care).
Foster Care people had her wearing plastic flip flops, cheap hanes white t-shirt, threadbare jeans when she arrived & plastic bag with more of same, I threw it ALL away!  she had NOTHING Decent to wear - those people should be prosecuted!
Oh, but they were buying her CIGARETTES every week!
I spent about $2,000 right on spot buying her clothes, shoes, boots, make-up, hair stuff (she was into fixing hair, used to beg to brush my long hair and braiid it, experiment with it  YIKES!   LOL )   Huge shopping sprees at big city malls - FUN!  

Anyway, when she was 16 - She Ran Away because I said she cculdn't stay out all night at someone's graduation party.   When my son told her next day on phone she was in trouble, the low-lives with her told her if she accused us of abuse she could be emancipated (laws in that state give teens all the rights, parents/custodians get all the responsibility, basically Screwed!)  
The State let her at 16 yrs old QUIT HIGH SCHOOL AND LIVE wherever she wanted
(she had diagnosed mental issues - they didn't address them or follow-up on her meds either tho I repeatedly asked about it - she is Bipolar!)   Less than 2 months later she was living with her 23 yr old drug addict boyfriend - while my son and I went thru HELL, paying for lawyer & proving our innocence as best we could!  To my knowledge she Never finished school.  I get so angry when I think of that.

She finally admitted she lied about us and "unfounded" report.  I learned After all this she had pattern of False Allegations against Every single group home/mental institution/foster family for TWO years prior that I was Not Told About
I'm not fooling anyone, least of all myself - I loved her with all my heart and would have taken custody even if I knew, I would have believed (falsely) that R  (only daughter I ever will have in this life) could Never Lie Against Me,  almost to point of legal charges filed on hearsay?
- just to get her way??   She was put me and my son thru that (she's related to my sons thru their dad's family & tried to help her too)
Her social worker from other state told me - "Her fury has no bounds.  She doesn't care who she hurts to get what she wants."

THAT was 12 yrs ago.  I had box of her childhood things,  I couldn't look at them but I couldn't throw them away either - her signed softball from grand slam home run, pictures of her in cute dresses I bought her, pictures of me teaching her to swim, ride bike etc.
OMG - this hurts and I really thought I was over this  Finally.

When I moved last fall, I looked for a Very Very Long Time at that box.... then I turned my back on it.  Left it behind.
I said "Enough".   She's been in & out of jail, had 3 kids w/diff fathers (all went to foster care), heard about her arrests etc 
Lot of mistakes I hoped to help her avoid.   Tough life.   Had car wreck while DUI and snapped her vertebrae when 19 yrs old.
It goes on and on.

THEN - last week, like some forgotten demented malicious ghost, a letter arrived from her.
It had been forwarded from my other old address.  At least she doesn't have this one yet.
She says she's sorry.  She wants to see me.  She wants to repair our relationship.... 
(first thought was "is she in NA making amends? LOL  2nd was - her mom's dead now, so she wants me again?  and  "what mess is she in that she wants me to help her with?  things like that-  along with the deep sense of pain & betrayal, of loss)

So many mixed feelings and mentall/emotional confusion.
Just when I threw away the box and said I was letting her go.   WHY???

Let me be blunt.  It's not I would mind seeing her, tho it will be emotional, of course.
I'm more worried about her learning we live in same state again (she returned to home state, so now I 'm only hour away)
I think of the emotional issues - that makes my disease worse, don't need DRAMA in my life and R. is DRAMA full-time.
Just thinking about this for past week has made me sick.  and heartsick - reliving it all.

Also, concerned because she & drug buddies steal.  I don't want them to know where I live and worry about being robbed.
Sad to say, more than I can express, but what I feel for her now is  Love COMBINED with Dread

Part of me would be so happy to hear she's turned her life around; maybe all my love, time, effort made a difference.
What I fear is more likely I will see the girl I loved so much, prematurely aged and trying to use me, manipulate me.
Please forgive me R.  if I am wronging you with that thought, but I greatly fear and dread what would come of allowing back into my life.


Any feedback from other members would be greatly appreciated.   Thank you.

Your pain is too much to bear alone......seek some professional help and advice.

My SO has a similar story......it too is not over yet.

Be wary and cautious......meet in a neutral place and have someone you trust (your children) with you.

Rely on your intuition.....listen deeply to the counselor inside you.

Your deepest fear is that she has not changed.......you cannot ignore this thought.

I hope Charon can help you.....she is probably more qualified than anyone else on this forum.

My heart is with you......so very sorry!

Dancing Wolf, if you don't mind, may i respond tomorrow?

But, loving is good. Dread is never good. But, it tells me, you are in no way, shape nor form ready to deal with this child again now.

I do feel her presence could be toxic to u now.

But, I also feel that u can become equipped to help her and yet still protect urself.

I shall pray on it. And, think.

but, other members will have some good answers here. Like popster did.

Oh my gosh, Dancing Wolf, my heart aches for you. Family relationships can cause us as people the most hurt feelings and unbearable or it seems so.

Popster I thought had very good advice.

Charon, will, and she is not done. I respect her voice very much

thanks also FF talking about forgiveness.

Dancing Wolf,  take care of yourself first at this point. You need and deserve it. 

Even our loved ones and adult children at some point ....well need to reap the choices they have made and we need to let them, but I can hear how so very much you long for it to be different, and there is always a chance, so I understand that...too.

I understand the feelings. .....................................sighs

Oh my , it is so hard for those with compassion and love not to let it cloud the outlook.

Dancing Wolf, at the very least , *if* you meet, do it at a neutral place and guard your private info until a later time.

It is easy for someone to use those that love them and they become very good at it. As you pondered...

Maybe she really is trying to make amends but, if so she will understand your fears, and also she will want to protect you ....you should be able to get a feel for it and then maybe know more how your gut tells you...that is right way moving forward is.

Wait, dont be hasty or let emotions decide for you. They are a factor no doubt

Dancing Wolf,
These guys are giving you good, solid heartfelt advice. When I read your words, which it was very brave of you to post, I feel your pain, I feel your heartbreak and hurt. But I also hear your ambivalence. All these things are normal given what has occurred with this person both in and out of your life.

I hear the rational part of you saying, I am done, never putting myself in that position again.

I hear your heart saying, maybe things could be different now, maybe this is another chance for her to be back in our family and be ok.

I am a social worker and a licensed therapist. This is not the first time I have heard this story, unfortunately. If she is still using drugs or is not on the proper medication for her bipolar disorder, there is nothing you can do for her. She will put you through more of the same. That would be a large part of my decision making process. And yes, I do understand how hard tough love can be to dole out. No matter what you decide to do, you cannot take responsibility for her actions or reactions. Until a person is ready to take responsibility for something, they are not ready to be healthy.

She owes you honest answers to whether or not she is still using and whether or not she is taking medications, as prescribed for her bipolar disorder. If she cannot do that, she cannot be trusted, as much as your heart wants it.

A bit of tough love from Rumor, because I don't want your heart to heart anymore than it already does.

Please keep us updated and let us know how we can help. We are pretty good listeners.

forgiveness can be done without staying involved......just because you forgive doesn't mean you have to be there for her if her demons still possess her....I wouldn't say this if I didn't have first hand experience.

your priority at this point should be you.

None of us can hold ourselves responsible for the bad choices others make......

Please be careful.......take your time.

I appreciate everyone's input.  It was helpful to see different viewpoints on this matter.
She is one sad chapter in a long, disturbing book. 
Wish I could say she was the worst chapter (that would be my mother)
At least she is not the subject of nightmares or flashbacks, so I'd say that I survived her, just a bit worse for the wear.


Random Thoughts:

Looked at her letter several times.  Short and superficial, in my humble opinion.  I don't feel any real sense of remorse, or even beginning of understanding what she did to us. 
I've seen better greeting cards (heck, I've written better ones... LOL)
If this was all the effort and feeling she had to offer in atonement or in friendship, it falls far short.  
I don't mean to be harsh.  Honest feelings though.

I studied graphology.  She used to write me 4-8 page letters when younger.  This letter was about 1/2 page long, so smaller sample.  However, her writing and signature seemed to manifest negative character traits and narcissism that harmed me before.  Her numbers reflected deceit.  I have some concerns about her from letter, her stability. Don't believe she is doing well.  Grasping at straws maybe..



I also think about this:  I knew her approx 10 years. (that was 20 yrs ago)
I loved her as long as she let me, and then loved her longer.  Tho she rejected me.
Now she's been out of my life for longer than she was in it.  I've never known her as an adult at all, just heard of her...
My relationship and love was with child/teen - someone that no longer exists, never will again except in memories.
I loved her then.  That was a lifetime ago.  I don't know her anymore.  She's not a child, she's an adult almost 30 now.
Who or what she is now?  I can only speculate, based upon her yrs of substance abuse, self-destructive, manipulative behaviors.
(my oldest son tried to help her when she was around 20, to his own sorrow, she manipulated his wife & caused them problems).

I wish her the best and would Love to hear she changed, began to be the wonderful person she could be.
That's not what I've heard yet, tho I haven't checked lately since I have grandson to raise & my own health problems.


Finally, my grandson had a crummy mother who abused drugs while pregnant with him & then neglected/abused him until we were able to get custody.  He has had to struggle uphill against many challenges, but he chose to make positive choices in life.  He makes A's, avoids people who use substances, has college plans and learned from his parents' irresponsible behaviors.  Teenager stuff - argh! but pretty wise for a young man.
Loves me and helps take care of me.  I am blessed by that.

I realized that I must Never in Any way expose my grandson to a person so like his mother, as former foster daughter.
He already tends not to trust people, esp women.  With disabilities, my first obligation is to finish raising my grandson.
I'm not doing anything that could harm him or his plans, dreams, for the future.
We have a rough time, but we manage.  We don't need to ask for more trouble than we already have.

I believe if she is meant to re-enter my life, nothing I do will change it.  She will appear.  I won't force it to happen tho.
Unwise at the moment, I strongly feel, for me to seek out more potential problems.
Or take on new crusades at this point in my life, either.  
Unfortunately.   Sadly.   Realistically.

Peace to everyone!

Sounds like the end of this thread.......you don't need any advice from what I can read in your post

If that "note" didn't touch your heart........then your analysis of it is probably spot on.....Stay your course!

Thank you Dancing Wolf for the follow up post.

Sounds like you have reasoned things out very well. And I have to say I am glad you are not putting yourself at risk with the things on your plate at the present, committed to ....

My friend, Best to you, in the journey ahead.

Thanks, Linville, for your encouragement and friendship!  
Yes, wisdom prevails...  this time.
 I'm really too sick to take more on and must prioritize how I use my limited energy. 
(My fellow "team members" thought I was nuts meself back in the day LOL  cuz I always requested worst new admits on adolescent psych unit - no one seemed to realize they were ones who needed help the most...  I miss nursing so much, as you know)

 Popster, who knows when we have things figured out?   
About the time we think so, our plans "change" 
Knowing my luck, she'll show up on my doorstep (in a basket  LOL)

I'm interested in other people's perspectives when making an important decision.
Then I "talk around" (and around) the issue in my mind,  socratic I suppose  LOL
When I considered what was best for my grandson the answer came Very easily.

Popster -  The note she sent me, superficial though it was, made me cry and heart ached for week. 
Made me physically ill (worse)    I still love my little girl, who is gone forever.  But she is gone forever...
I can imagine the job she'd do on me if I let her in now, still loving her so much even after all these years.
Because I strongly sense she is   T-R-O-U-B-L-E

Everyone's comments helped (and I appreciate them!)  because I am weak re: her

I don't feel so guilty for not responding to her now that others have also expressed same concerns I had.
Illness, meds and stress - these days I second guess myself a lot more than ever before. 
Always had my sweetheart to discuss things with yrs past; he was quite a practical, common-sense kinda guy  
He kept me grounded.   I don't feel grounded now.   I know I'm out of balance, too.
These things cause me to doubt myself.

THANKS AGAIN to Everyone who responded - for your input, for being my "sounding board", for just being there to read my situation